Hello to everyone
I am a newbie and appreciate all and any advice I can get on the issue I have
I have been working with another photographer getting images, this was going on for 4 years, I did the majority and then some of the driving to various destinations and the other guy sat in the car taking images
Often I would also take images
All of the images were submitted to agencies for sale and we split the revenue, quite often the images would gain resale’s and we would split that too
If I or the other guy worked alone we would not split the revenue
I have now discovered the other guy has been doing things distasteful and have moved away, in retaliation he is now claiming full rights to the images we worked together on saying as he pressed the button he owns them and instructed the agency to now remove my payment rights for future sales
I have been advised that there is a revenue rule that can apply here and I was hoping someone can advise me
Thank you in advance
Request for advice
Re: Request for advice
Hi Memycamera
There are two separate aspects to this. The first, copyright, does in general belong to the person who took the picture. There are special rules where the photographer is in a contract of employment and it is his job to take photographs (such as a press photographer), but that doesn't apply to your circumstances.
The second aspect is the agreement between you over sharing the workload and proceeds. This sounds as if it was a contract, albeit not a formal one in writing. There must have been a reason why the other photographer originally agreed to share the royalties, and I have to assume that it was because he recognised the value of your contribution to the operation. The problem with verbal agreements of this sort is that they rarely address issues, such as here the dissolution of the agreement, which weren't relevant at the time the initial agreement came about. And it would probably prove to be quite expensive to sort out the contractual issue, so unless there is a great deal of money at stake, I suspect you may need to write this off to experience.
That said, returning to the copyright matter, if you can identify the photographs which you took, then you should try to assert your rights in them with the stock agency. So for instance, if you used a different camera and the numbering or EXIF data of your images was different to the other photographer's, it should be comparatively easy to show which images are yours, and which are his. However if you shared a camera, or used the same numbering system for each individual frame, it will be much harder to sort out which are your images, and which are his. For the future, make sure you always set up the EXIF data on your camera to include your copyright details.
You mentioned a 'revenue rule', but I'm afraid I can't throw any light on that. I assume that you have already contacted the agency to arbitrate over your challenge to the decision to cut you out of any future payments.
There are two separate aspects to this. The first, copyright, does in general belong to the person who took the picture. There are special rules where the photographer is in a contract of employment and it is his job to take photographs (such as a press photographer), but that doesn't apply to your circumstances.
The second aspect is the agreement between you over sharing the workload and proceeds. This sounds as if it was a contract, albeit not a formal one in writing. There must have been a reason why the other photographer originally agreed to share the royalties, and I have to assume that it was because he recognised the value of your contribution to the operation. The problem with verbal agreements of this sort is that they rarely address issues, such as here the dissolution of the agreement, which weren't relevant at the time the initial agreement came about. And it would probably prove to be quite expensive to sort out the contractual issue, so unless there is a great deal of money at stake, I suspect you may need to write this off to experience.
That said, returning to the copyright matter, if you can identify the photographs which you took, then you should try to assert your rights in them with the stock agency. So for instance, if you used a different camera and the numbering or EXIF data of your images was different to the other photographer's, it should be comparatively easy to show which images are yours, and which are his. However if you shared a camera, or used the same numbering system for each individual frame, it will be much harder to sort out which are your images, and which are his. For the future, make sure you always set up the EXIF data on your camera to include your copyright details.
You mentioned a 'revenue rule', but I'm afraid I can't throw any light on that. I assume that you have already contacted the agency to arbitrate over your challenge to the decision to cut you out of any future payments.
Advice or comment provided here is not and does not purport to be legal advice as defined by s.12 of Legal Services Act 2007
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Memycamera
- New Member
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- Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:36 am
Re: Request for advice
Andyj
Thank you for your response, unfortunately I am leaning towards writing it all off but the value involved is quite substantial and future revenue will be just as valuable on the turn of certain events
It’s all about the verbal agreement and as you say he has instructed the agency(S) to pay me 50%, of sales values after agency fees, as you say because he has recognised my contribution, which would of meant the image would not be taken had I not contributed
I have made reference on my image details now, sadly at the time we used different cameras but he edited and sent to the agency requesting both of us be paid, he numbered the sets 1,2,3 and so forth
Thanks again I’ve some serious thinking to do
Thank you for your response, unfortunately I am leaning towards writing it all off but the value involved is quite substantial and future revenue will be just as valuable on the turn of certain events
It’s all about the verbal agreement and as you say he has instructed the agency(S) to pay me 50%, of sales values after agency fees, as you say because he has recognised my contribution, which would of meant the image would not be taken had I not contributed
I have made reference on my image details now, sadly at the time we used different cameras but he edited and sent to the agency requesting both of us be paid, he numbered the sets 1,2,3 and so forth
Thanks again I’ve some serious thinking to do
Re: Request for advice
Hi again Memycamera
I forgot to mention in my previous reply that your claim to the images which you took would also be strengthened if you had retained the original images. From what you have said, it sounds as if this may not have happened, and along with the re-numbering, this tends to weaken your position now. However, if the EXIF data is still embedded in the images, that should indicate the make and model of the camera used to take the shot, and this, obviously, would weigh in your favour. It might be worth checking any images you know to be yours to see if the EXIF data remains. There are several free software tools you can find using Google, to read the EXIF data if it is present.
I forgot to mention in my previous reply that your claim to the images which you took would also be strengthened if you had retained the original images. From what you have said, it sounds as if this may not have happened, and along with the re-numbering, this tends to weaken your position now. However, if the EXIF data is still embedded in the images, that should indicate the make and model of the camera used to take the shot, and this, obviously, would weigh in your favour. It might be worth checking any images you know to be yours to see if the EXIF data remains. There are several free software tools you can find using Google, to read the EXIF data if it is present.
Advice or comment provided here is not and does not purport to be legal advice as defined by s.12 of Legal Services Act 2007
Re: Request for advice
Hello and thank you to the responses in this thread which has been very interesting to read.
I was wondering if people could provide some feedback for a query I have?
Myself and two friends (Pete and Dave) collectively met and wrote a children's book series in the UK from 2018 - 2020. As we collected our writing notes I became the sole editor and creator of the text which featured in each book but I do recognise it was a collective effort even if +90% of the final text was written by myself and approved by both Pete and Dave. In 2020 we decided to take things to the next level and pay for an illustrator and set up a company, at which point Dave decided her no longer wanted to be apart of the project anymore nor the newly created company. The company split became myself with 90% and Pete with 10%. This was base on commitment levels which Pete could provide having a young family.
We later decided to create assignment contracts to assign the Copyright IP to the company such that it would allow things to be much easier in the future if we managed to become successful and turn over profit.
We recognised under UK copyright law that Dave owned the copyright to the text and for him to assign the IP to the company would need to be compensated for potential profits made from the text. Unfortunately Dave has not signed that contract yet which offered Dave a percentage of the royalties which seemed fair at the time (10%). Being somewhat naïve to the level of effort required and almost 4 years on including over £25,000 pounds in accumulating directors debt, the project and brand is starting to show significant potentially and have a much bigger reach than just the UK.
My question to the forum is, does anyone have any idea how much royalties should be paid based on copyright ownership in line with the level of effort and contribution that someone may have to creating text for books, considering the level of effort in designing and managing the illustration process and then significant marketing and social media efforts. Dave is our friend but I am feeling slightly unsettled with the amount I am offering now but also have no idea what a fair amount is. I was hoping for a general ruleset but have been unable to find any useful information.
Thank you all for taking the time to read this and I look forward to any resources you may have.
Have a good weekend
I was wondering if people could provide some feedback for a query I have?
Myself and two friends (Pete and Dave) collectively met and wrote a children's book series in the UK from 2018 - 2020. As we collected our writing notes I became the sole editor and creator of the text which featured in each book but I do recognise it was a collective effort even if +90% of the final text was written by myself and approved by both Pete and Dave. In 2020 we decided to take things to the next level and pay for an illustrator and set up a company, at which point Dave decided her no longer wanted to be apart of the project anymore nor the newly created company. The company split became myself with 90% and Pete with 10%. This was base on commitment levels which Pete could provide having a young family.
We later decided to create assignment contracts to assign the Copyright IP to the company such that it would allow things to be much easier in the future if we managed to become successful and turn over profit.
We recognised under UK copyright law that Dave owned the copyright to the text and for him to assign the IP to the company would need to be compensated for potential profits made from the text. Unfortunately Dave has not signed that contract yet which offered Dave a percentage of the royalties which seemed fair at the time (10%). Being somewhat naïve to the level of effort required and almost 4 years on including over £25,000 pounds in accumulating directors debt, the project and brand is starting to show significant potentially and have a much bigger reach than just the UK.
My question to the forum is, does anyone have any idea how much royalties should be paid based on copyright ownership in line with the level of effort and contribution that someone may have to creating text for books, considering the level of effort in designing and managing the illustration process and then significant marketing and social media efforts. Dave is our friend but I am feeling slightly unsettled with the amount I am offering now but also have no idea what a fair amount is. I was hoping for a general ruleset but have been unable to find any useful information.
Thank you all for taking the time to read this and I look forward to any resources you may have.
Have a good weekend
Re: Request for advice
Hi Nick and welcome to the forum.
As you probably appreciate, if the individual contributions made by you, Pete and Dave cannot easily be separated, you are considerd as joint authors, irrespective of the actual contribution of each of you. While it is not relevant to your query, joint authorship brings with it several other attributes. For instance, the copyright term for the works you produce(d) will be based on the lifetime plus 70 years of whichever of you survives the longest. What is more relevant in this case is that each of the joint authors needs to agree to any future exploitation of their works, and any one of them can veto a new deal. This would apply, for instance, if Disney came along and offered to buy the film rights to some or all of the books you have already written!
By vesting the copyright in the company, it makes it easier for a third party to negotiate with just one copyright owner, namely the company, rather than three, or if you include the illustrator, four individuals. However you should not confuse the split of the copyright with the amount of shares each person has in the new company. They may be the same, or they may be entirely different since the company will have other responsibilities beyond just the writing, such as the publishing and marketing aspects, not to mention the administration of the distribution of royalties etc to the writers/illustrators who may not be shareholders.
The nearest I can think of for a 'formula' for working out the proportions of how to split up the royalties, is what the music industry call spilit sheets (often referred to as songsplits). Songwriters frequently face the same problem as you have outlined, and it is often difficult after the event to come to an agreement about how much each person contributed to the overall song which consists of both lyrics (a literary work) and the tune (a musical work), to which is then added the complication of the production of the song (the recording). Fortunately when it comes to just literary writing, things are not nearly as complicated. However the general approach only works if there is a basic level of agreement between all the contributors. Absent that agreement, which seems to be the case with Dave, you may need the assistance of an outside arbitrator to come up with an equitable split. I don't mean a professional arbitrator, just someone you all know and whose judgement you respect, who is not likely to be biased towards any one of the writers. Ideally this should be someone with their own writing experience.
Don't forget that the split you eventually arrive at is applied to the nett royalties or other income you (or the company in this case) receive. Any up front costs to do with getting the books published or marketed need to be deducted first. And although Dave has dropped out of the writng partnership for any new works, he is still entitled to a share based on his contribution to the earlier books. This may mean that each book has to have its own split, which makes dividing up the overall income more complicated, but it is the only fair way to do it unless Dave allows you to buy out his copyright share. If that were to happen, you need to make a realistic assessment of the future earnings from the books he contributed to, and agree a sum in exchange for him assigning his share of the copyright to the company. Obviously if he hasn't signed the previous agreement, that may be easier said than done. It would be advisible to hold back in escrow a reasonable percentage of the nett earnings to cover the eventuality that, at some future point, Dave decides to sue the company for an equitable share of the royalities he thinks he is entitled to.
However this is just an introduction to what can be an immensely complicated subject, and so since you are now directors of a company and have a legal (fiduciary) duty to the company's shareholders, you should get some proper legal advice before too long. A good place to start might be to register with the Writer's Guild or a rights management organisation such as the Authors' Licensing and Collecting Society.
I'm sorry this is not a complete answer to your problem, bu I hope it gives you some pointers on how to move things forward.
As you probably appreciate, if the individual contributions made by you, Pete and Dave cannot easily be separated, you are considerd as joint authors, irrespective of the actual contribution of each of you. While it is not relevant to your query, joint authorship brings with it several other attributes. For instance, the copyright term for the works you produce(d) will be based on the lifetime plus 70 years of whichever of you survives the longest. What is more relevant in this case is that each of the joint authors needs to agree to any future exploitation of their works, and any one of them can veto a new deal. This would apply, for instance, if Disney came along and offered to buy the film rights to some or all of the books you have already written!
By vesting the copyright in the company, it makes it easier for a third party to negotiate with just one copyright owner, namely the company, rather than three, or if you include the illustrator, four individuals. However you should not confuse the split of the copyright with the amount of shares each person has in the new company. They may be the same, or they may be entirely different since the company will have other responsibilities beyond just the writing, such as the publishing and marketing aspects, not to mention the administration of the distribution of royalties etc to the writers/illustrators who may not be shareholders.
The nearest I can think of for a 'formula' for working out the proportions of how to split up the royalties, is what the music industry call spilit sheets (often referred to as songsplits). Songwriters frequently face the same problem as you have outlined, and it is often difficult after the event to come to an agreement about how much each person contributed to the overall song which consists of both lyrics (a literary work) and the tune (a musical work), to which is then added the complication of the production of the song (the recording). Fortunately when it comes to just literary writing, things are not nearly as complicated. However the general approach only works if there is a basic level of agreement between all the contributors. Absent that agreement, which seems to be the case with Dave, you may need the assistance of an outside arbitrator to come up with an equitable split. I don't mean a professional arbitrator, just someone you all know and whose judgement you respect, who is not likely to be biased towards any one of the writers. Ideally this should be someone with their own writing experience.
Don't forget that the split you eventually arrive at is applied to the nett royalties or other income you (or the company in this case) receive. Any up front costs to do with getting the books published or marketed need to be deducted first. And although Dave has dropped out of the writng partnership for any new works, he is still entitled to a share based on his contribution to the earlier books. This may mean that each book has to have its own split, which makes dividing up the overall income more complicated, but it is the only fair way to do it unless Dave allows you to buy out his copyright share. If that were to happen, you need to make a realistic assessment of the future earnings from the books he contributed to, and agree a sum in exchange for him assigning his share of the copyright to the company. Obviously if he hasn't signed the previous agreement, that may be easier said than done. It would be advisible to hold back in escrow a reasonable percentage of the nett earnings to cover the eventuality that, at some future point, Dave decides to sue the company for an equitable share of the royalities he thinks he is entitled to.
However this is just an introduction to what can be an immensely complicated subject, and so since you are now directors of a company and have a legal (fiduciary) duty to the company's shareholders, you should get some proper legal advice before too long. A good place to start might be to register with the Writer's Guild or a rights management organisation such as the Authors' Licensing and Collecting Society.
I'm sorry this is not a complete answer to your problem, bu I hope it gives you some pointers on how to move things forward.
Advice or comment provided here is not and does not purport to be legal advice as defined by s.12 of Legal Services Act 2007